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Thread: LPVO Options?

  1. #1
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    LPVO Options?

    I am trying to locate some options for a LPVO. I am not particular if it's 1-6 or 1-10 or 1-8 or whatever. That said I am somewhat particular about the reticle options. The picture I attached is the type of reticle I would like. I do not want any type of BDC reticle though. A BDC reticle is a non starter. Also it must be in MILs.

    The whole idea here is to convert all of my rifles over to a MIL system and that rifle so far is the lone holdout.

    So far the only option I have found is the Vortex Razor Gen III 1-10.

    I would prefer not to spend $2500+++ for an optic right now... but if I can find something decent I will start putting some money aside and make that my next goal.

    Please let me know if you know or learn of something that fits this bill. It doesn't have to be that exact reticle, just something similar.

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    The ATACR has as similar reticle layout, minus the ranging etching. Street price on the ATACR is still more than the Razor 3, however. You can find the Razor 3 in the $1800-2K range currently, and they're actually in stock. Both the Razor and the ATACR have a capped elevation turret that isn't not designed to be used quickly. Not that it's a deal breaker, but just something to know ahead of time.

    One thing to keep in mind with LPVOs is that a lot of them claim to be daylight bright, but they're not, especially in the Texas (or Florida for me) sun.

    I've been back and forth on getting another ATACR or getting another Razor 3. I'll probably end up getting the Vortex due to availability and a slightly lower price, but they're both great options.

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    The soon to be released EOTech Vudu 1-10x28 FFP. Looks like it should come in a bit less expensive than the Razor 1-10




    A FFP LPVO with a Christmas tree / Horus style reticle is typically only found on more recent higher end options because it really doesn't start making sense until you get to at around 8x. I'm eyeing that Razor 1-10 for my LMT MARS-H. Street price for those is under $2k and they are really competing with the more expensive ATACR and Kahles and Leupold Mark 8

    I know you said BDC is a no-go, but Euro Optic has Razor 1-6 for $900 https://www.eurooptic.com/vortex-raz...iflescope.aspx and you'll be hard pressed to get as good of glass in an LPVO at that price point and you have to learn your holds for whatever reticle you are using anyway, so for the type of shooting you're likely to be doing using an LPVO the subtensions really shouldn't matter much under 600 yards. That said, I agree with you, and I prefer reticles where the subtensions are round MOA or Miils instead of based on a specific BDC calculation, but generally LPVOs are designed to quickly get you on center mass, not for precision. With the 10x you have the ability to start acting more like a long range optic so the Christmas tree starts to make a lot more sense, IMO. That's why I like the idea on a 16" .308

    But you asked for other options. Not sure if the Riton reticle floats your boat


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    I am always tempted to just treat everything like it's a long range rig but I am definitely resisting. I learned a lot in studying out the particulars of this AR (my first one) and I do not want to change it's purpose.

    I don't know all the military terminology but I would say my setup is based on a Recce mindset. That being a rifle with the ability to ID targets at longer ranges. That said a longer focal length would be welcome.

    To gator's point, having 'daylight bright' illumination would be awesome but my experience tells me that isn't always the case, especially with not so high end optics. My Aimpoint RDS are all awesome but I have a feeling that if I want that same performance in an LPVO I will have to sell a kidney.

    Before I was focused on shooting groups and all that, and with this particular rifle I can hit targets relatively reliably out to 800 yards. Now though I tend to shoot more based on PRS type shooting. Shooting off of a fence, around trees, kneeling, whatever. I think the latter is more applicable to what this rifle is set up for. To me it is a much more practical use.

    I don't like BDC reticles because none of them match up with my load at all and trying to remember oddball data is a pain in the ass. Being able to accurately hold wind is to me another important thing. If I am holding off in space not knowing really what I am holding isn't really any better than what I have now. In a way it's holding me back (with that rifle) from learning.

    The ATACR and that new Eotech both look perfect. If I am not dialing elevation that's fine. Once I get it setup that might be a good thing. I don't mind using hold overs at all. Anyway I don't have to change my optic under any time line. It's worked for this long. That said I am keeping my eyes open.

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    Is something like the NX8 1-8 not in your wheelhouse?


    As far as the BDC, I’ll say with an LPVO, if you’re engaging pinpoint targets that a shift in load data will make a difference, you may want a different optic all together

    I wasn’t really a BDC believer until I got the ACSS TA44 ACOG. My TA11 has holdovers but the ACSS system just…works…in that optic. Using 55 to 77gr ammo, I can confidently engage out to 500yds with minimal changes, even scoring 70% or better first impacts on a moving (3-5mph variable) target at 300yds.

    Before you forgo the BDC (Razor II HD-E for example) I’d see if you can borrow one and use some different ammo in your specific rig

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    I have the Razor 1-6 on my Recce and love it. I wish it was a bit lighter, but otherwise I'm a fan.



    I love the EBR-X reticles, too, but I don't think one would be really useful below 8x and for 5.56 you probably aren't engaging beyond 600 and 6x is fine. So, what you are chasing makes sense to me for calibers with longer effective range like .308 but I'm not convinced its particularly useful for a 5.56 recce. That Vudu does look attractive, but I'd be surprised if the glass in comparable to the Razor. From what I've heard, EOTech just isn't there yet but maybe they'll surprise us. And if an ATACR was in your budget this thread wouldn't exist.

    I don't like BDC reticles because none of them match up with my load at all and trying to remember oddball data is a pain in the ass.
    Sorry, but this isn't making sense to me. At the end of the day, your scope will have little marks on it that correlate to distances for your ammo and your options are either to remember your holds or use a ballistic calculator to solve for the hold before you take your shot. BDC reticles attempt to correlate those marks to common ballistics to increase speed and simplicity. In either case, you're going to have to figure out your dope on a table like below, regardless of how far apart those hashmarks are and frequently your targets will be between the hashmarks no matter which reticle you chose.



    The Mil/MOA vs BDC is a red herring for LPVOs at short to medium ranges as far as I'm concerned, and a BDC for 77gr SMK for a 5.56 Recce seems pretty darned practical. If you're off, you probably aren't off by much. Now, for long range where you're working with a spotter it's a whole different story. Note that the new Razor 1-10 gives you the option of mil based Christmas tree or MOA based BDC as that magnification range puts you into a bit of cross-over.

    Lastly, the whole point of EBR/Horus/Christmas Tree reticles is so you don't have to dial so I generally I expect them to have capped turrets. If you don't like that, just leave the caps off.

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    I didn't mention the NX-8 because it seemed like the Xmas tree reticle was part of the requirement, but if it isn't, the NX-8 does well on the cost/features, and it gives the Razor 1-6 a run for its money on brightness. Optic quality is a step below either Razor, and the eye box is less forgiving when compared with the other optics, especially at 6x or greater, but it's still a great little optic for what it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by BoilerUp
    Lastly, the whole point of EBR/Horus/Christmas Tree reticles is so you don't have to dial so I generally I expect them to have capped turrets. If you don't like that, just leave the caps off.
    As with everything, it can depend on how you're using it. The last SPR match I shot in September had a stage where you could be prone but had to engage targets from 300-800y. I was running my trusty NF 2.5-10x24 on my perfectly capable CA MK12. I mention those two items because both were perfectly fine for completing the stage in the allotted 60 second par time (and we had a spotter that was helpful 80% of the time). I ended up parring out after making a hit on the 7xx yard target, not because I was missing overall, but because I was spending the time spinning elevation. I wasn't referencing anything that took up time, as I knew the holds by memory, but just the physical time it took to spin the turret took up valuable time.

    I mention all of this because if I had been running the Razor 1-10, that turret wouldn't have been compatible with dialing, as it's even slower, and holding would have been required.

    I quoted you and made the comment not because I'm arguing your overall point, but just giving some usage data to Alamo on why I mentioned how the capped turrets can be different, and as you said, why the Xmas tree can be helpful with capped turrets.

    And man, do I still wish I had decided to hold that day! C'est la vie.

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    I want to see some reviews of the upcoming EOTECH Vudu 1-10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Former11B View Post
    Is something like the NX8 1-8 not in your wheelhouse?
    I am not familiar with that optic, or at least wasn't until now. I've never owned a NF but given the reputation I have to give them the benefits of being awesome. The reticle though isn't what I was initially looking for though.

    Right now all I am doing is getting my options out there so I can make an informed decision later on.


    Quote Originally Posted by BoilerUp View Post
    At the end of the day, your scope will have little marks on it that correlate to distances for your ammo and your options are either to remember your holds or use a ballistic calculator to solve for the hold before you take your shot. BDC reticles attempt to correlate those marks to common ballistics to increase speed and simplicity. In either case, you're going to have to figure out your dope on a table like below,
    I get that. I had a BDC reticle before and honestly I didn't like it. Who knows. I've gone full circle on a number of things before so this wouldn't be the first.

    For me, I am typically not shooting a hodge podge of various ammo. I load every round pretty much. I have that load, that DOPE, etc all pretty much down.

    Quote Originally Posted by BoilerUp View Post
    Lastly, the whole point of EBR/Horus/Christmas Tree reticles is so you don't have to dial so I generally I expect them to have capped turrets. If you don't like that, just leave the caps off.
    Given the right reticle I won't need to dial. The more I look at it the Razor, or at least the reticle, is perfect. I can engage to 800 yards in over a 12 mph wind without touching a knob, which is as far as I can accurately hit with that rifle so far. But like everyone says, I typically won't be shooting that far.

    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post
    I didn't mention the NX-8 because it seemed like the Xmas tree reticle was part of the requirement,
    At this point it's a preference. I wouldn't go so far as to say 'requirement' yet. Apparently some people prefer the Christmas tree otherwise Night Force, Vortex and Eotech wouldn't be making them.

    I would definitely welcome more zoom so a 10x would be great, but I am not looking primarily for zoom. 8x would be fine as well.

    Capped or tatical turrets are not an issue. Like I said above with that particular 1-10 I can do 100% of my shooting with holds. For those longer range shots (more importantly in the wind) I won't be off in dead space just hoping I am close. I can do hold overs and hold in dead space now with the optic I have so at least so far to me, moving to a different optic with some of those BDC reticles is a lateral move minus maybe a bit more zoom and maybe just a higher quality of scope.

    Some of the other options have a decent compromise, but they are just that--a compromise, not what I am actually in theory after. Hence the thread to see what the market has to offer. At this point it's all research so my wants are subject to change as I learn more.

    Edit:

    Another thing to add is I do other kinds of shooting and I am trying to keep with a similar theme. I am trying to not have one oddball rifle that I need to use a different system. I have my 22 LR with a Christmas tree, I have my 6 ARC with a Christmas tree and at least in theory I want the other one that way too. Calling wind and so forth is nice when you have common measurements and ways to measure across different platforms. In short shooting my 22LR helps carry over to other shooting and vice versa. At least that's the idea.
    Last edited by alamo5000; 7 January 2022 at 11:05.

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    Sounds to me like the ATACR and the Vortex are right up your alley. I would add that the feature of both of these scopes, the red dot, can also be a slight handicap depending on what you're shooting at (specifically the size of the target at range). Both have a large-ish dot in the center, surrounded by a segmented donut, so you don't have the fine resolution of a conventional cross hair. Vortex off-sets this by making the dot and donut slightly transparent, so you can see through it slightly. NF's option is completely opaque.

    If you're engaging something less than 2 MOA-ish and you've dialed, it's something to be aware of. If you hold, then the issue largely goes away at anything more than .5 or so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post
    Both have a large-ish dot in the center, surrounded by a segmented donut, so you don't have the fine resolution of a conventional cross hair. Vortex off-sets this by making the dot and donut slightly transparent, so you can see through it slightly. NF's option is completely opaque.

    If you're engaging something less than 2 MOA-ish and you've dialed, it's something to be aware of. If you hold, then the issue largely goes away at anything more than .5 or so.
    Are you talking only about the FC-DM, or are you including the FC-DMx in this assessment?

    Other options:
    • Kahles K18i
    • S&B ShortDot CC/Dual CC
    • Steiner M8Xi (no tree, though)
    • Leupold Mk8


    If you are wedded to a Christmas tree, then BDCs are generally not going to be useful. However, if you're not, I agree with the others that a BDC is perfectly fine for the typical LPVO use case, you just need to figure out your own dope for that specific reticle and commit that down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Default.mp3 View Post

    Other options:
    • Kahles K18i
    • S&B ShortDot CC/Dual CC
    • Steiner M8Xi (no tree, though)
    • Leupold Mk8


    If you are wedded to a Christmas tree, then BDCs are generally not going to be useful. However, if you're not, I agree with the others that a BDC is perfectly fine for the typical LPVO use case, you just need to figure out your own dope for that specific reticle and commit that down.
    A Christmas tree as of right now 'seems' like it is my better option. That said absolutely nothing is written in stone. I went car shopping not too long ago hell bent on buying X but in the end after taking everything into consideration I left with something else. This optics question might be the same thing.

    The last BDC I had was a post with some hash marks on it. If I recall it didn't even have any horizontal lines, marks, or reference points in it. If I needed to hold off some I was basically just waffling around in space guessing. That said there are others out there that do have wind holds on the reticle and I probably would have liked those a lot more.

    If I can increase zoom I am completely open to that. Having 8x vs 4x is an improvement for sure.

    I don't see myself as being completely married to the idea (or almost any other thing) but it is my first option as of now.

    A secondary reason is that, like I said above, I like the idea of having cross over skills. Shooting everything in mils but then having one oddball where I need to convert to moa on the surface seems like a good thing to avoid.

    Learning how to read conditions is something I am trying to learn. "This is what a 5 to 7mph wind looks like" and with X bullet I need Y hold off... It just seems to me that sticking with the program is a lot more efficient.

    Basically that kind of sums up where I am at as of now. There might be something better out there. I just don't know what that is yet.

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    SIG's Sierra BDX computes your holds based on specific profile information, and you can create profiles based on your load specs and BC of the bullet you're using. It can also take data from the Kilo range finder and further dial you in; no Horus needed. While you're probably at that level, it does speed things up. Hell, it even has cant indicators.
    There's no "Team" in F**K YOU!

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    I stumbled on another possible contender from Primary Arms. Their 1-8 is around $1200 bucks and has what they call a Griffon Mil reticle.

    It's about half the price of the Vortex.

    Again I am just gathering options right now.

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    I know the ACSS reticles are well regarded, but I don't think I could ever convince myself to spend over $1,000 for something with the PA name on it. I know it's irrational and just branding, but....PA. And I'll say it again, that closeout Razor gen II 1-6 for $900 is a steal.

    I did stumble on this Athlon which might interest you. 1-10x with Christmas tree reticle for under $1k street. I've never looked through an Athlon. https://athlonoptics.com/product/are...fp-ir-mil-uhd/

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