NFA Trust question

[gatordev]

First, my advise - get the engraving done first. That way, if it gets screwed up, you are not locked to that lower and can use another. My story, and reason why - I got my eForm approval back, and started looking at places to get the engraving done. Being a good little boy, I tried to go local and spend my money here. Did some asking and reading online, and found the place the local shops used. Went there, inquired, and went with them... did it while I waited. Now, mind you, this place has done a number for a local shop that is a Class III dealer and has SBR's and cans. (BTW, their reality show SUCKS). So the guy walks back, hands it to me, and I about shit. It looks like some kid was making a 'Worlds Greatest Dad' plaque with a dremel tool. It looks like SHIT. Chipped, not deep enough, HUGE lettering, just horrible. We had some words, and I left completely and totally pissed. BUT... the lower was already registered and I was told that was it - I could not 'transfer' th stamp to a different lower. I ended up sending it out to be done a second time, and had a great experience with Ident Marking. I had them do the area under the trigger guard so it's not obvious to anyone.

But I ended up needing to JB Weld the fubar engraving, and I spent HOURS adding layers, wet sanding, and making sure it was smooth. I planned on having it cerakoted, and we were pretty sure it would be covered. but, when it was done, there was a tone difference and you could see the area I had worked on thru the cerakote, even tho it was the same color. I ended up having some stickers made that cover that section of the magwell, and in all reality it turned out looking pretty cool.

But my advice is, get the engraving done first in case you get screwed like I did.

I think the issue here is that there isn't any one perfect answer. For example... I engrave after. When I Form 1 a lower, it's in a Title 1 config until after it's engraved. But the last Form 1 I did, eForms didn't put anything in the "Additional Markings" box on the form, even though I put something in there when I filled out the form. So technically, nothing "has" to be there. Yes, I know what the handbook says, and when that lower becomes a Title 2 firearm (it gets a NFA upper) it will be engraved, but in the big picture of things, I find that the process isn't as black and white as the handbook says it is, but I protect myself by keeping it in a permanently non-NFA config until after all the paperwork is done. Plus, my local engraver does a great job, so I don't have to hope and guess.

[CarbonScoring]

All excellent points. I just got back from Atomic Tactical and their advice was also to engrave it first. To me that seems like the safest way to go. If the form 1 is denied, then I've just got a marred lower, rather than toying with jail time.

Think about that for a minute, how could you add an SBR to a trust that isn't an SBR until its approved and engraved. Remember that its not actually an SBR until you attach an un-pinned barrel under 16.1" or are in possession of said barrel.

I wasn't necessarily thinking of it as adding an SBR to the trust before it becomes and SBR. It was more along the lines of does the firearm that's being turned into an SBR need to be part of said trust first.

I think I'm squared away now, but feel free to keep the discussion going. It's interesting to see the wide variety of interpretations of the laws.

[gatordev]

All excellent points. I just got back from Atomic Tactical and their advice was also to engrave it first. To me that seems like the safest way to go. If the form 1 is denied, then I've just got a marred lower, rather than toying with jail time.

This is the part that always puzzles me. How and where does the jail time come from? Assuming you're not putting it in a Title 2 config prior to engraving it, how would anyone know it's missing something? I understand the argument that someone could look at your Form 1 and then look at the lower and see you've "committed perjury" because the Form doesn't match the lower, but really, I find that insanely unlikely because again, no one would know it's a NFA item because it would just look like a regular lower with nothing on it (or it would still have a 16" barrel on it).

I know it's dangerous to use common sense when dealing with the ATF as a whole, but here's another way to look at it... The Form 1 is permission to build the firearm. You can't build it until permission has been granted (and the tax has been paid). So engraving after the Form is approved again, seems reasonable, as you haven't actually manufactured the firearm. Or look at as if building a suppressor...you can't actually manufacture the suppressor until you've been given permission, but you're still supposed to know how it will be marked. Obviously you can't mark it until it's actually been manufactured.

Please understand, I'm mostly bringing this up as a discussion, and at the end of the day, whatever you're comfortable with is what's important. I was just expanding on the idea on why it seems like it really doesn't matter either way.

[JoshAston]

In the past ATF has confiscated unengraved guns and returned them engraved with an electro-pencil.

[SwissyJim]

...Plus, my local engraver does a great job, so I don't have to hope and guess.

And wouldn't you know it, since this debacle I have located a different local shop that DOES do a great job - laser, proper size/depth, while you wait....

Oh well. Learned a good lesson and got a kick ass sticker out of it! LOL

[gatordev]

In the past ATF has confiscated unengraved guns and returned them engraved with an electro-pencil.

Presumably these were Title 2 configured guns, otherwise, again, how would they know?

[JoshAston]

Yes

[CarbonScoring]

This is the part that always puzzles me. How and where does the jail time come from? Assuming you're not putting it in a Title 2 config prior to engraving it, how would anyone know it's missing something? I understand the argument that someone could look at your Form 1 and then look at the lower and see you've "committed perjury" because the Form doesn't match the lower, but really, I find that insanely unlikely because again, no one would know it's a NFA item because it would just look like a regular lower with nothing on it (or it would still have a 16" barrel on it).

I know it's dangerous to use common sense when dealing with the ATF as a whole, but here's another way to look at it... The Form 1 is permission to build the firearm. You can't build it until permission has been granted (and the tax has been paid). So engraving after the Form is approved again, seems reasonable, as you haven't actually manufactured the firearm. Or look at as if building a suppressor...you can't actually manufacture the suppressor until you've been given permission, but you're still supposed to know how it will be marked. Obviously you can't mark it until it's actually been manufactured.

Please understand, I'm mostly bringing this up as a discussion, and at the end of the day, whatever you're comfortable with is what's important. I was just expanding on the idea on why it seems like it really doesn't matter either way.

That's an interesting point. I never looked at it as permission to build, but thought it was a reclassification of the weapon, meaning it would, at the point of approval, be looked at as an SBR.

I still think it's probably safer to do it prior, just so the engraving is done correctly.

[Danep21]

Interesting responses about having assets on the trust before sending anything to ATF ($5 bill, $10 bill). This is malarkey. I started my trust, had absolutely nothing on it, and got my SBR and Suppressor approved in 7 months.

[gatordev]

That's an interesting point. I never looked at it as permission to build, but thought it was a reclassification of the weapon, meaning it would, at the point of approval, be looked at as an SBR.

Yeah, it's an application, not a change in status. You can actually have an approved stamp and then request a refund and void the stamp if you haven't built anything yet. Think of your lower as a chunk of metal that once you get your Form 1 approved, you can then "mold" into a new rifle (even though it's already a rifle).

I still think it's probably safer to do it prior, just so the engraving is done correctly.

Which is good enough reason to do it before. Again, just adding to the discussion.

Interesting responses about having assets on the trust before sending anything to ATF ($5 bill, $10 bill). This is malarkey. I started my trust, had absolutely nothing on it, and got my SBR and Suppressor approved in 7 months.

I think it depends on how the trust is written. Mine was the same as yours. Nothing needed to add to it to exist, it just does, but that's FL. Other states and other methods of how it's written may say otherwise.

[CarbonScoring]

Just got an email from the ATF confirming my Form 1 was approved. Now if Ident would just ship me back my lower.

[Ride4frnt]

Just got an email from the ATF confirming my Form 1 was approved. Now if Ident would just ship me back my lower.

Ahh the perks of having a neighbor with a laser machine.

[CarbonScoring]

Ahh the perks of having a neighbor with a laser machine.

Yeah, once I sent mine off the shop down the street hooked up with someone who can do it in a week. Oh well, it shouldn't be too long.

[Ride4frnt]

Yeah, once I sent mine off the shop down the street hooked up with someone who can do it in a week. Oh well, it shouldn't be too long.

Curious to know where on the lower you got yours engraved? On the mag well?

I thought the lady next door was also a notary which would've been perfect for my trust and engraving, but she let her notary go. Does still run an engraving business though and said as long as my receiver isn't raw aluminum she will engrave it.

[CarbonScoring]

I'm having it done on the right side above the hammer and trigger pins.