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9 February 2009, 20:37 #1
Let's build an extreme use AR-15 (UPDATE PAGE 8 & 9)
I've been kicking around the idea of building an AR15 for no other purpose than to use as an absolute heavy use/ abuse weapon. I don't mean the gun you take out and shoot fast, I mean an overbuilt AR15 that will stand up to any use or abuse you can realistically put a carbine through.
Think drop testing of components, thing about a carbine that will soak up loads of users worst punishment, and come back for more. Think along the lines of an AR15 that is going to get treated like a conscript treats their AK.
What components would you select, and why? As this project moves along, we will get plenty of pictures of everything, and we will talk about what we chose, why we chose it, and what other options could have filled the bill.
I'm open to just about any idea. This will be a project that should serve as a long standing platform for further testing of assorted components, but to start out, we need a solid base. This will be a total custom platform, no preassembled uppers, or complete weapons.
Everything from lowers, stocks, sights, buffers, uppers, barrels, BCGs, and whatever else you can think of are on the table.
What parts would you chose? What do you want to see used?
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9 February 2009, 21:12 #2
Cav Arms MkII lower. On the basis of simplicity, durability and weight. If the MkIII ever came to fruition that would be my selection, but its not in production.
-Mitch-
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9 February 2009, 22:04 #3
I suppose some of this depends upon whether we're talking about a from-the-ground-up build, or an adaptation of a production rifle. Stick makes it pretty clear that we're really talking about the former, whereas I would probably be more likely to start with something like a Colt AR6721 (AR-15A3 Tactical Carbine) and go from there.
If we play by the rules, however, I suppose we have to start with the receivers. Assuming a billet lower wouldn't be too much of a boutique selection, I would probably give serious consideration to a Tactical Innovations lower. It appears to be a robust alternative to the norm, though I concede that appearances may be deceiving, and I'm not able to base this upon first-hand experience. It simply strikes me as a worthy contender. Would one of the original (non-Rogue) SMOS lowers work here as well? Likely so -- just haven't seen one in a long, long time.
For an upper, if hard-use is our standard, rather than a specific price point, might we be well-served by a monolithic upper that simplifies some of our other selections later on down the road? Either the LMT MRP or the VLTOR VIS would seem to suffice, though I'm more immediately familiar with the latter -- and if the integrated rail is overkill, there is always the MUR. Either way, I would be somewhat unlikely to go with a standard upper.
Depending upon how far we want to take this, I'd either work with the aforementioned Colt 6721 barrel, or go to a Noveske stainless with a nice full profile. Assuming we give the boys in Grant's Pass the nod here (sort of a no-brainer for me), a mid-length gas system would also seem to suit our purposes well.
On the BUIS front, would a hard-use weapon make best use of something like the LMT cut-down fronts and rears, or are there even more robust choices on the market? Conventional wisdom would seem to favor a more fixed configuration, vice the usual folders, but I've no dog in this particular fight.
True, my starting point is probably running afoul of practicality and affordability standards, but this would be fairly consistent for me, as I rarely concern myself with either. I'm really more of a "best I can find" type of guy.
ACLast edited by Army Chief; 9 February 2009 at 22:55. Reason: Added BUIS question(s)
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9 February 2009, 23:44 #4
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I am starting my first AR build, and although I do not plan on taking it into harms way, or using it as any kind of duty weapon, I am still going to build it as though I were. I research the hell out of stuff before I make decisions. I went with the Tactical Innovations T15BDX lower which I do not regret one bit. The thing is a piece of art that is also built like a tank.
I have a LPK on the way, and thats as far as I have gotten, but I plan on doing the upper on a VIS platform...maybe something built by Noveske or Rainier...Or I will piece it together myself.
Probably a E-Mod or ACS stock, and a Spike's buffer and MIAD will complete the lower.
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10 February 2009, 03:00 #5
Sight unseen, I think I would opt for the ACS as well, though this presumes that something like a Sully stock wouldn't actually be better-suited to our stated purposes.
The grip could be a standard A2 or a MIAD -- or better yet, a simple MOE -- but durability concerns would seem to rule out most of the Ergo variants.
Handguard furniture is dependent upon whether or not we went mono/polyithic, whether or not we need a free float capability, and whether or not we intend to hang a lot of superfluous crap from the forend. I'm still thinking MRP/VIS, but if not, I suppose Daniel Defense is an obvious contender. That leaves us with about as many choices as Jelly Belly has flavors of jelly beans, but the Omega seems a decent baseline here; especially if the constant battering results in damage that may ultimately require replacement in the field. I did mention that I would favor mono/polyithic, right? LOL
Can't really speak much to internals, though the Y/M National Match bolt carrier seems to be worthy of closer examination. Also, as a southpaw, I'd probably give serious consideration to a Badger Ordnance ambidextrous charging handle, though I presume the majority here would espouse the idea that a Gas Buster is a more on-point upgrade for a gun such as this.
Since this is an imaginary project to this point, let's presume it should have supressor capability. That would lead me to AAC, and to either the SPR-M4 or M4-2000, depending upon the application. I'm not immediately familiar with the durability characteristics of one versus the other. Either would mandate the use of a Blackout variant, of course.
AC
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10 February 2009, 10:42 #6
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Shit I guess I'll start off a template so it's easy to see what the winning components are. Will reply when I have a little more time and thought.
Handguard:
Reason:
Sights:
Reason:
Optic:
Reason:
Grip:
Reason:
Stock:
Reason:
Barrel including length:
Reason:
LPK/Trigger:
Reason:
Buffer:
Reason:
BCG:
Upper Rec:
Reason:
Lower Rec:
Reason:
Magazine:
Reason:
Lights/lasers/etc:
Reason:
Charging Handle:
Reason:
Flash Hider/Comp:
Reason:
Misc Stuff rail covers etc:
Reason:
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10 February 2009, 21:37 #7
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12 February 2009, 10:15 #8
I appreciate the template Coastie, saved me some time.
Handguard: DD 9" Lite rail
Reason: Known for quality and durability, at least thats what I have come to conclude while researching handguards for my 1st build. And I like the way it bolts to the upper. Also, it can fit a piston retro fit underneath if one decides to go that way.
Sights: GG&G Spring actuated flip ups.
Reason: It's what I got handy. Want to trade them in for non spring actuated though.
Optic: Aimpoint Comp M4s.
Reason: Durability, battery life and battery availability, obvious CQB ability and ability to add a magnifier for better ranged fire.
Grip: Magpul MIAD
Reason: Durability, custom options and storage.
Stock: Magpul CTR
Reason: It's what I currently have and seems to lock up the good with a very simple action.
Barrel including length: 16" Mid length chrome with M4 cuts. Not sure about brand. Prob gonna be based on availability without sacrificing to much.
Reason: Middle of the ground for compactness, accuracy and velocity.
LPK/Trigger: DPMS or RR
Reason: Quality
Buffertube: Vltor
Reason: Well made.
Buffer: H2
Reason: It's what I run on my current gun and it works good.
BCG: BCM or LMT
Reason: The BCM bcg seems to be well made as well as the LMT
Upper Rec: Vltor MUR
Reason: Overbuilt and nicely made.
Lower Rec: Defensive Edge SLR15 lower
Reason: Ive read good things about it and from what I can tell it's equal to a Noveske or Tactical Innovations lower. 7075 aluminum Mill spec and finished nice.
Magazine: Magpul PMag
Reason: Haven't had a problem yet.
Lights/lasers/etc: Open
Reason:
Charging Handle: Open
Reason:
Flash Hider/Comp: Primary Weapons FSC556
Reason: Compensation ability mixed with good flash suppression and it's not considered a flash suppressor by the BATFE.
Sling: BFG Vickers padded with Cobra buckle.
Reason: Comfort, ease of adjustability and all metal hardware for durability.
Misc Stuff rail covers etc: Magpul XTM or XT
Reason: They work as advertised.
This is my current and 1st build and I want it to be a extreme hard use build. Not that I have any real world reason except for the piece of mind that it won't quit no matter what....I hope.
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12 February 2009, 13:39 #9
Matt,
Is that what you are looking to build, or what you would like to see us building to test out, or both? In this thread we are looking to debate pros and cons, and design up a weapon that the Staff here will build, then beat on and torture in horrible ways.
Whatever we build will be treated like an AK, and I don't mind breaking parts to get an idea of how much damage or abuse an AR15 can sustain.
The reason for this is that there seems to be an increasing feeling that the M4 and AR15 variants aren't durable, and overall that the basic gas system is well behind the curve in terms of durability and longevity. I strongly disagree with that idea, and am willing to see if I can break things and prove myself wrong.
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12 February 2009, 14:53 #10
Oops, I guess I miss interpreted the post. Sorry Stick. This is my current themed build. I have most of the parts I mentioned except the barrel and gas system. But I think it would make a decent torture test for some top of the line parts.
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9 May 2009, 07:08 #11
Ok assuming money and parts availability are NO object the following are the parts I would choose to build with based upon sticks original guidance. Oh and the default reason for all the parts is (best part IMHO)
Handguard: Larue
Sights: LMT BUIS Front and rear
Reason:most robust on the market
Optic: Aimpoint Comp M4S with Larue Mount
Reason:Built like a tank long battery life nuff said
Grip:Magpul Maid
Stock: VLTOR EMOD
Barrel including length: Noveskie 14.5 Afghan
Reason:Noveskie quality 249 double chrome lining
LPK/Trigger:4.5 lb JP trigger pack
Reason:I like single stage triggers my only other alternative would be the standard trigger issued in the M4 as far as reliability the standard would be the best
Buffer: No preference I know there are a ton out there and I really dont have a lot of knowledge on them or why you would go with one over the other I always use what comes with my rifle
BCG:BCM or LMT enhanced BCG probibly NP3 coated for better lubricity
Upper Rec:VLTOR MUR
Reason:Robust
Lower Rec:Larue Billet Lower
Reason:Larue, Integrated trigger guard, Larue, did I mention that already
Magazine:Magpul Pmag
Lights/lasers/etc:Surefire M600c
Charging Handle: PRI Gas Buster
Flash Hider/Comp:Surefire FA556-212
Misc Stuff rail covers etc:Magpul XTM
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21 October 2009, 22:48 #12
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Handguard: DD Mk18
Reason: Very rigid mounting and 2pc design makes it easily serviceable.
Sights: TROY
Reason: Heard nothing but good about them.
Optic: Micro T-1 on Larue
Reason: Great optic, small enough to leave room for possible magnifier.
Grip: MIAD
Reason: Tough, very Ergonomic and easily customizable to fit user's needs.
VFG: TD Stubby
Reason: All I need as I do not grip the whole thing and is very solid.
Stock: Milspec CTR
Reason: Simple and I think the guarded release lever + lock feature are important. Also has the QD option should you later decide to go that route.
Barrel including length: Noveske Recce
Reason: Same as others have said -- Hammer Forged; M249 steel and Chrome
LPK/Trigger: Colt FA
Reason: Good machining = great fit, finish, and function. No bursts -- too crowded plus you have your finger for that.
Buffer: H, or H2 if the weapon allows it.
Reason: I want to maximize the efficiency of the mid-length system.
BCG: BCM
Reason: it's BCM :) although I would like to see the Failzero tested.
Upper Rec: Larue Stealth
Reason: It's billet and basically a beefed up version of the standard forged but at the same time, not overly beefy. Reinforced where it counts if you will.
Lower Rec: No auto billets so Colt, Noveske or any top tier FA lower.
Reason: FOr peace of mind -- I know they all probably use the same CAD file but atleast they have better QC.
Magazine: PMAG
Reason: Most reliable to date.
Lights/lasers/etc: Surefire G2Z
Reason: Simple and I know it wont slip off in the event of a fall or maybe even sustained FA fire.
Charging Handle: BCM Gunfighter
Reason: FOr the reinforcements
Flash Hider/Comp: Knights QD
Reason: Simplicity of the A2 with the benefit of a drop in suppressor.
Misc Stuff rail covers etc: Magpul Ladder
Reason: Low profile and good fit
Misc Stuff rail covers etc: Magpul enhanced trigger guard
Reason: for glove use.
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23 May 2010, 12:34 #13
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Geissele 2 stage SSA trigger
Just bought a Geissele trigger.. was easy to install and feels nice..Also.. Bill Geissele was fantastic about calling me to talk me through one issue i was having while installing.. (On a Saturday)
Highly recommend this trigger and company..
if you dont have a geissele 2 stage trigger... GET ONE
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15 January 2011, 12:22 #14
A1 SP1 Slick Side
I'm building it right now. Colt A1 slick side upper. BCM 11.5" bbl with fixed fsb. The rear sight will have a CSACT Aperture and the FSP will be tritium. MOE handguards. A BFG uwl sling attachment with a BFG padded two point sling. X300 Light on the MOE. The lower will be a Sully fixed stock. I would use a DD or Noveske lower and a DD or G&R tactical LPK. I would have an H/H2 buffer. I like the MOE pistol grip and trigger guard. A stack of 30 PMags to go with it. There is not much to break and I've eliminated a bunch of moving parts. The only thing requiring batteries is the light and I will have two spare in the pistol grip. I will add either a Vortex or AAC flash hider to the gun.
Last edited by usmcvet; 15 January 2011 at 12:25. Reason: flash hider
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14 November 2011, 18:32 #15
Noveske N4 Recon 6.8 SPC
I prefer a Noveske N4 forged lower & upper with this set up 6.8SPC Arnold Dew Custom piston upper 16" Green Mountain match barrel with comp/brake
Daniel Defense Quad rail, Vltor E mod stock w/pad magpul grip, troy sights ,aim point M4 comp,Surefire M952V-T w/infrared this is a very solid platform for home and combat duty!!Last edited by BlackCrow; 14 November 2011 at 18:40.
Freedom is not free you have to earn it one bullet at a time!!