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24 January 2009, 03:06 #1
Optics: Are Emerging Models Changing the Landscape?
Background: This actually grew out of an earlier thread (page 6) on the topic of Magpul's new MOE handguards, but it probably rates separate consideration, now that we're seeing some new optics entering production in 2009, such as Trijicon's TR-24 or the new ultra-compact ACOG.
My comments from the other thread appear below, and while this topic has been bandied-about many times in many places, there is always room for renewed input and discussion.
I've spent most of my career as an iron sights guy, and while I have some experience with Aimpoints, the only glass I use on a regular basis is a S&B Zenith Flash Dot (1.5-6x42mm) on my hunting carbine. I'm a very young 43, but 43 nonetheless, so I'm beginning to appreciate some magnification for general range work as presbyopia begins to set in.
For close-in work, obviously that can work against you, so I wouldn't hesitate to go with a Short Dot if I thought it offered the best compromise. Trijicon has me rethinking that just a bit with the TR-24 release, and I had some earlier interest in the Nightforce NXS -- though the latter didn't offer much in the way of daylight-visible illumination.
I'm looking for variable versatility, as opposed to a 1:1 RDS -- and am willing to pay for the right product -- but I'm just not settled on what that might be. (ACOGs definitely appeal to me as well, but at what cost for close-in work? I don't really want the compexity of a Docter riding shotgun.)
So, has the game really changed that much with the promise of these new offerings from Trijicon and others, or do we figure to end the year with much the same array of basic options as we have today? My underlying question really is built on the premise that the S&B Short Dot -- the weight and cost notwithstanding -- still represents my idea of the right sort of compromise, but there is plenty of room here for dissenting views.
AC
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24 January 2009, 10:14 #2Contributing Member
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Personally I went with a Eotech with fliip magnifier so I could do both long(er) range and close up. Aimpoints are good for the same setup, but my Eotech is 1 MOA dot versus the Aimpoint T-1 I have which is 4 MOA. Of course the applications of the Eotech and the T-1 are different. I have looked and touched the ACOG and I'm impress of their clarity and fiber optic sights, but I didn't want magnification all the time, and the cost drove me away. Also I wanted night vision capability which both Aimpoint and Eotech gave me.
Hope you find what you want.
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24 January 2009, 11:08 #3
Without reviving the well-worn Aimpoint versus EOTech debate, I did consider going the magnifier route, as it would seem to offer the best of both worlds, as you suggest.
There is a bit of a weight and complexity penalty associated with going in this direction, but that isn't a show stopper by any means. My real objection lies more with the compromised field of view associated with these in-line 3x units. Have you found this to be a legitimate concern in actual usage?
AC
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24 January 2009, 12:19 #4
AC
I think we are going to see a continual evolution of the 1x4 variable optics. At a certain point, Eotech or Aimpoint will sell their circuits, and a reasonable battery life will become an option on these platforms.
I keep waiting for more manufacturers to make a one power optic that switches over to 4x with the flick of a switch. The technology and ability is obviously there but we are going to see guys to think outside the box a bit. Once this happens, we will see pricing come down as well.
I think we are at least 4-5 years away from seeing this in mainstream optics, or even coming close.
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24 January 2009, 13:00 #5
OK, I'll bite, Stick: what is on your duty weapon right now? What do you prefer on the range, and if you had to start completely over from scratch tomorrow, what would be at the top of your list for a solid median (non-SBR, non-SPR) application?
AC
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24 January 2009, 13:52 #6
AC,
Here she is. If I were to do it all over again, and in a little while I will retire this to a dedicated training weapon, I would go with an off the shelf Noveske or the upcoming Daniel Defense M4 carbine.
I use the Gear Sector GS-2P sling, and see no reason to change away from it. I currently use an Eotech, but I know that the Aimpoint T-1 would be more durable, so would my M2 or M4.
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24 January 2009, 14:15 #7
Didn't mean to tax you too much with the questions, as I was driving mostly at optics; that said, it's always good to see a weathered battlestick, and learn more about a competent man's configuration choices.
As you have no doubt deduced, my experience is more with baselined military carbines, so I enjoy hearing how the boys in blue set up their patrol rifles. We've come a long way from my (admittedly limited) days in LEO when showing up with a box stock Colt Sporter II Carbine was considered overkill in and of itself. :)
AC
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24 January 2009, 16:57 #8Member
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IOR's introducing something close to this: a scope that flips between 1x and 4x. 35mm tube, short length, lit reticule. No details yet on whether or not reticule illumination is daylight visible or battery life, but it appears an interesting evolution of optics.
IOR 1x/4x Optic
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24 January 2009, 17:48 #9
Outstanding, I can't believe I missed that at SHOT. I really should have stopped by their booth. Now I will sit here kicking myself for awhile. Its too bad I don't know anyone or have any contacts at IOR, I would like to work with that on a few different levels.
If anyone gets a chance to get their hands on one, please post your feedback. I think that is a great step in the right direction.
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24 January 2009, 21:19 #10
The 1x4 scopes are quickly becoming my favorite scopes. Unfortunately no one has yet to put it all together for a perfect scope.
The IOR 1x4 looks nice, but with their 6x zoom technology, they should have went with the 1x6 scope and used a modified MP-8 reticle instead of the caliber specific one they are using. And it should be FFP instead of the SFP.
I have the Swarovski 1x6 scope and it is nearly perfect, except for the turrets and the illumintation should be a little brighter.
The Short Dots are nice, but they are heavy and they are not a true 1x.
The Trijicon 1x4 Accupoint looks like it will be a real winner, especially if it has target style turrets, which I heard it does.
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24 January 2009, 22:17 #11Contributing Member
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That IOR looks like a good one if it's optics are crisp, clear, durable and accurate.
Some one get out there and tell them Stickman wants to take a picture of their scope! :)
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25 January 2009, 01:02 #12
Good catch! Admittedly, I left the Z6I off of the list because so few at home are really familiar with it; that said, many of my German colleagues feel that it bests the Short Dot in a great many ways. I don't know if I would go that far, as I simply don't have enough experience with it to make that call, but clearly, these is an argument to be made in favor of the Austrian entry.
With Extended Eye relief options and excellent reticle choices, the only wild card seems to the daytime illumination capability, as the turret configuration issue is not really a show-stopper for me. The larger question is, do you gain double the capability at double the price of something like the TR-24 or IOR 1x/4x? I suppose that depends somewhat upon how effective these new offerings will prove in actual use, but they seem to hold great promise.
Of course, as a previous Schmidt & Bender customer, I'm still hearing the siren call of the Short Dot 2. It's a difficult call to make when you aren't in a position to view the competition side-by-side ... and I don't exactly have ready access to a corner tactical shop.
ACLast edited by Army Chief; 25 January 2009 at 04:43.
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25 January 2009, 13:34 #13
Like many I've debated this with myself for a while and kept quiet, mainly not to spark any unnecessary debate. However, W.E. is full of folks in the know so I'll break my silence since the odds are good that someone has valuable input and will offer constructive criticism/experiences.
The Horus Talon http://www.horusvision.com/talon.php is short, light weight, and a non-caliber specific BDC. There isn't a lot of info out there but previous reviews have been positive with the exception of a non-daylight visible reticle when illuminated.
Elcan has an interesting offer with the Spectre DR, but it has trouble maintaining zero from what I understand. This is 2nd hand info from some folks that rely on optics more than I, and it may have been limited to the units they received. But, when all their shooters normally shoot 1inch groups at 100yds then use the DR and shoot 10inch groups, it leads me (and them) to believe there's an issue with the optic. It has the lever system you spoke of Stick, and I'm sure everyone has seen or heard of it. It may be the cats meow but if it doesn't hold zero what good is it? So, I'm a little leery, especially at their price point.
Finally, GRSC has some interesting offerings as well with the advent of their 1-6x variable with illuminated BDC reticle, which will be manufactured by Ellis optics in addition to their 1-4x. Previous 1-4x's were manufactured by Millett and it shares the same body and glass as the DMS-1. At $350 it has excellent value, and Ed is passionate about giving the gunfighter an edge with his optics and has excellent customer service.
None of these optics meet my ideal 1-4x criteria but come close. No/Long battery life, light weight, daylight visible reticle, BDC, clear glass, good FOV, and both CQB and medium range capable. Hopefully Sticks prediction is correct, but for now I don't think any of the recent offerings are truly groundbreaking as far as 1-4x optics are concerned...but they are heading in the right direction. I apologize for the winded dissertation.Last edited by Uglyduck; 25 January 2009 at 15:40.
-Mitch-
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25 January 2009, 15:10 #14
Stop keeping stuff in, I like what you had to say.
I mentioned before that I think scope companies will team with Eotech or Aimpoint to branch off with their illuminated crosshair technology. I really like what Trijicon does with their fiber panel, but a battery pack would bump it up a little, I just don't know what it would do to the pricing....
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25 January 2009, 17:16 #15Member
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I'm not sure if Aimpoint's and Eotech's illumination technologies transfer over to conventional, focussing optics with prisms.
What I'd like to see is increases in battery technology to package more amp hours into a given battery size, maybe some integrated recharging interfaces with optics that you could plug into a cigarrette lighter or 120 outlet, maybe some solar panel integarted into optics that keep batteries always topped up, some increases in efficiencies of lighting sources that draw less energy, maybe some special coatings on etched reticules that light up better/reflect better given the same illumination intensity. These are just some thoughts, not sure if any of it would be practical.