9mm AR vs .300 Blackout

[alamo5000]

How much investigating and liability do you think those cops in Turkey have if they accidentally shoot someone on F/A that wasn't the intended target?

I can answer that... Zero!

Thought you were reloading now?

Drops 300 ammo cost WAY down and can make 9mm for really cheap..

Stop over thinking and just get both..lol..

I still need to get a dedicated .30 cal can before I make the leap. That said I can load 9mm for about .12 cents or so a round. And yes I reload everything except shotgun shells. It might not be that bad to do 300BLK. I have to price it all out but from what I recall even reloading you're looking at .40-.50 cents a round depending on the bullet you use. I could be wrong on that though. 3x to 4x more shooting for the same price is nothing to sniffle at especially over the long term.

That's honestly my real kick lately is whatever I am planning to shoot I want to keep a lot of ammo for. I am trying to break the cycle of all hardware and no software.

Then I have to keep in mind that I want to build or buy a long range shooter too. When it comes to shooting I really enjoy that aspect a lot. I also have two .22LR builds in process (going slow for now)...

Long story short in the big picture I am planning out how to feed the family so to speak.

[Joelski]

As for welded cans... I can't believe that's even a thing. Even before we had no-SBR's here, I never even considered welding on a can. That's just a bad idea. I wonder if that's why AAC ultimately did not go forward with the Ranger 3.

Well, I sure hope I misunderstood the guy telling me this and he meant pinned/welded muzzle device, which doesn't make sense. This is a department that's not far from Rainier, where the work was supposedly done.

[UWone77]

Well, I sure hope I misunderstood the guy telling me this and he meant pinned/welded muzzle device, which doesn't make sense. This is a department that's not far from Rainier, where the work was supposedly done.

There is a department that uses custom 13.5" barrels with OSS cans. Not sure if those are welded though, but Rainier did the work. I can only think of a handful of departments that even use cans.

[alamo5000]

I am still hunting, looking, and pondering while I save up my pennies...

I have a serious contender here:

http://zenithfirearms.com/product/z-5p-pistol/



$1800 bucks includes 3 mags and a bunch of other stuff.

+$200 for the stamp and then another couple hundred-ish for a stock... not a bad option at all I don't think.

Anyone ever heard good or bad about that company and/or it's products?

They are Turkish made H&K clones...

[Joelski]

Meh, I like the CZ better. The only thing that makes the MP stand out is FA, which isn't going to happen, so...

[alamo5000]

Meh, I like the CZ better. The only thing that makes the MP stand out is FA, which isn't going to happen, so...

I need to finger bang a scorpion and see if I like it. I think I picked one up before (long time ago) and it felt kind of too plastic for me.

As much as I would like to custom configure an AR9 at present it seems like sort of a pain in the ass to do. I've only mentioned like 20 times that I don't like the mags too :) That said they aren't off the table by any means.

I think the HK clone would be a pretty bad ass gun but I don't know a whole lot about H&K stuff to be honest. I've only shot one true H&K before ever and that was a FA MP5... fun level 11 out of 10...

MPX vs HK clone... at the end of the day similar price points for what you wind up with...

the Scorpion is a wild card still.

I can see my 9mm can with a 3 lug adapter on the end of each to be honest

[alamo5000]

Also what's with that messed up barrel thread the scorpion uses? What gives?

[Joelski]

Left hand thread, or metric pitch? It's a yurp gun, so its bound to have its weirdness. HK's aren't going to be much different in that respect. I like the Scorp because it has the right amount of moderness (IMO), without being spacey. It's significantly different from an AR without being commie bloc fugly like AK's (again, IMO). The 9 mil AR's are getting cartoony-looking (IMO) with the miniaturized mag well. It looks like the stiff-legged deer that boings around the meadow from some childhood cartoon I can't recall. The H&K is a badass gun, but its a wee version of some even more badass gun and it's been around nearly as long as the AR but hasn't changed significantly (Read: it hasn't gotten cooler looking like the AR). I just think an SBR'd CZ is an interesting concept that hasn't been done over and over and over. And the price of admission doesn't cost numerous additional deutschmarks based on a roll stamp. Fresh and cool and comfortably affordable is always good.

[alamo5000]

I think I've found what I am gonna get provided I can round up the $$$ to do it.

It might be a while before I can do it so I have plenty of time to think it over.



As for the why's I would want that one over all the rest...

In no order...

1. it's built for 9mm from the onset. No 'adapting a platform'...
2. none of the tinkering to get it to work as you would with an AR9
3. From what I can tell, no gas blow back in the face like the MPX has when suppressed (per youtube videos)
4. It seems extremely reliable.
5. It's metal
6. a very proven platform

Just overall I like it. It seems like it more than checks all the boxes for what I want.

On their site they list them at 1800 bucks but I have found some online for $1675....+200 for the stamp + $300 for the stock...

Total price tag with no optic $2200 bucks for an SBR with 3 mags and a whole kit of stuff included.

If I had the money I would order one of these right now. I think it's the best of all worlds*

(*considering I am still largely ignorant to the AR9 platform)

If Quarter Circle 10 ever releases their AR9 with the MP5 mags I would consider taking a look at those too, but for now that gun as it's shown in the video is clearly in the lead.

[BoilerUp]

I love the MP5, but I honestly do believe the MPX renders the MP5 obsolete. You can set up an MPX in the same configuration as that MP5K. I suspect my MPX will eventually be an SBR sporting a 4" barrel and the carbine handguard shrouding a suppressor. Again, though, the correct answer is "both", so we're really talking "which first?" Price point is about the same. I will eventually also have an MP5 clone (probably the full size, though, not the K). But the ergos of MPX are better, the transferability of the AR muscle memory is invaluable, I can tap the AR aftermarket for several MPX items (e.g., trigger), I can rebarrel it myself if I ever need to (i.e., switching between 4", 8", and 16" barrel assemblies is trivial), and I think the aftermarket will only grow for the MPX as more of them get out there.

Owning an MP5 at this point is kind of like owning an M1A. Of course we all want one in our collection, but weapons have evolved since the MP5 was designed (see what I did there?). I'm exaggerating a bit, because I don't really think the MPX is "light years" ahead of the MP5, but I think it brings enough innovation, modernity, and compatibility w/ "America's Rifle" to give it sizeable lead over the MP5. Also, you get the satisfaction of supporting American manufacturing.

All that said, I'd never blame or criticize anyone for buying a roller lock. They're awesome, historically significant, well designed, and reliable. I'd take a hard look at the POF (Pakistani Ordnance Factory) imports over the Zenith/MKE, but there are pros/cons with either. Go spend some time over at the clone forums on HKPro. Also, given that neither Pakistan nor Turkey are particularly stable, there is a case to be make for picking one up now if you find one in stock. There are rumors that Zenith won't be able to bring in any new shipments this year as a result of the current state of Turkey.

BTW, aftermarket MP5 mags have a pretty spotty reputation. I fondled a Scorpion and pretty much hated it. Of course, that's a personal preference. I'd take an MP5 over a Scorpion hands-down.

[alamo5000]

I love the MP5, but I honestly do believe the MPX renders the MP5 obsolete. You can set up an MPX in the same configuration as that MP5K. I suspect my MPX will eventually be an SBR sporting a 4" barrel and the carbine handguard shrouding a suppressor. Again, though, the correct answer is "both", so we're really talking "which first?" Price point is about the same. I will eventually also have an MP5 clone (probably the full size, though, not the K). But the ergos of MPX are better, the transferability of the AR muscle memory is invaluable, I can tap the AR aftermarket for several MPX items (e.g., trigger), I can rebarrel it myself if I ever need to (i.e., switching between 4", 8", and 16" barrel assemblies is trivial), and I think the aftermarket will only grow for the MPX as more of them get out there.

Owning an MP5 at this point is kind of like owning an M1A. Of course we all want one in our collection, but weapons have evolved since the MP5 was designed (see what I did there?). I'm exaggerating a bit, because I don't really think the MPX is "light years" ahead of the MP5, but I think it brings enough innovation, modernity, and compatibility w/ "America's Rifle" to give it sizeable lead over the MP5. Also, you get the satisfaction of supporting American manufacturing.

All that said, I'd never blame or criticize anyone for buying a roller lock. They're awesome, historically significant, well designed, and reliable. I'd take a hard look at the POF (Pakistani Ordnance Factory) imports over the Zenith/MKE, but there are pros/cons with either. Go spend some time over at the clone forums on HKPro. Also, given that neither Pakistan nor Turkey are particularly stable, there is a case to be make for picking one up now if you find one in stock. There are rumors that Zenith won't be able to bring in any new shipments this year as a result of the current state of Turkey.

BTW, aftermarket MP5 mags have a pretty spotty reputation. I fondled a Scorpion and pretty much hated it. Of course, that's a personal preference. I'd take an MP5 over a Scorpion hands-down.

Everybody knows that I totally over-think everything

In this case I am measuring twice and have no saw to cut with, not even once. (I'm broke for the time being). I am still getting back into the work force after taking off almost a year to travel...(like 8 months)...I would have actually been gone longer but some investments went south...

I have plenty of time to think it over so that's both good and bad. LOL

As for now I can only say I am basing my judgements off of Youtube. Of course I did get to fondle a Sig and a Scorpion although just a little bit and I've never gotten to shoot an AR9 in my life. Basically at this point I would be buying blind. It's sort of like that feeling I had when I knew I was going to buy a supressor but didn't know which one to get and basically had to decide on something sight unseen.

All that said within 6 months if I play my cards right hopefully I will have the cash to put whatever I want into SBR format (at least pay for everything). That is barring anything crazy happens.

When it comes to actual firearms though I don't buy based on sentimental value. I've never really watched a Chuck Norris movie and said 'I am going to get a gun just like that'. The sentimental aspect doesn't come into effect whatsoever. But if I am going to buy a gun and SBR it and be stuck with it for the rest of my life I think it warrants research. And yes, sometimes I do think out loud too much here on the forum Seriously though I TRULY value you guys opinions on these things A LOT because collectively and individually you guys have way more knowledge than I do.

People keep saying that the Sig 'is going to be'... and 'eventually' in regards to parts or whatever and maybe that's just my bad but I dislike the idea that maybe at some point 3 years from now that I might be able to get a spare barrel or a hand guard the length I want it or whatever.

That said, I am sure that if I got the Sig I would be loving it. The MPX is extremely attractive. Let's be honest. I do like it. That H&K clone though does look like it checks a whole lot of boxes too though and none of it is because I watched Die Hard.

In the mean time...

[alamo5000]

I love the MP5, but I honestly do believe the MPX renders the MP5 obsolete.

More than one person has said this but so far no one has explained 'why'. It might sound like a dumb question but what's better about it?

And you are right about 'which one is first' rather than just 'which one'...If I get some investments that go well I have a list ready to go.

[gatordev]

BTW, aftermarket MP5 mags have a pretty spotty reputation.

Just some additional info for alamo... The POF mags have a very good reputation and mine have run flawlessly. They're reasonably priced, compared to true HK mags, and are for sale new at several of the standard HK parts vendors regularly.

[BoilerUp]

More than one person has said this but so far no one has explained 'why'. It might sound like a dumb question but what's better about it?

I thought I did, but let me recap/expand:
1) Ergonomics/manual of arms: same as AR. Last round bolt hold Open.
2) Modularity: limited shared components with AR, but includes trigger and pistol grip, which lets you tailor #1. Full length top pic rail. Modern, free float KeyMod handguard
3) construction: machined/assembled design allows the owner/operator to rebuild/replace almost everything with limited tooling. I personally place a very high value on being able to rebarrel a weapon on my own. The MPX design is quite innovative here and barrel assembly (which includes gas block/piston) swaps are trivial (this is to allow for the future caliber conversions).
4) OEM/parts support: MPX is a new production weapon that you buy direct from the original manufacturer. If you buy a clone or licensed production import, you are several steps and geographically removed from the OEM. If you buy an HK, I'm not sure what kind of support HK will give you since they haven't sold roller lock rifles to the US civilian population in decades. The main reason HK clones are so expensive is because of the limited supply of parts, especially original HK parts. That fact that Turkey and Pakistan are turning out licensed built versions is helping, but I don't think any actually believes the quality is as good as the "made in Germany" stuff. I keep hoping PTR will get into the 9mm game under license from HK.
5) Mags: Newly designed Lancer mags that load like an AR mag (lay round on top, push down). Not a huge advance, as I think the MP5 mags are supposed to be pretty good if you buy the more expensive OEM mags, but much better than pistol mags, IMO


#3 is actually very important to me and is what renders HK roller-locks as "collectibles" for me. I like to be able to work on my own weapons and the HK roller-lock guns construction limits what an amateur can do without a 20-ton press and welding skills. Arguably, this is less important on a 9mm, but is a huge advantage of the AR15/10 design over the HK33/G3 designs if you want improve your weapon's accuracy by upgrading the barrel. Not only do you have a ton of great barrels to chose from, but it's pretty easy to swap barrels with an AR design.

[Txfilmmaker]

Everybody knows that I totally over-think everything


In the mean time...

I can soooo relate!


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