Help with AR-15 Upper Build

[5pins]

Whenever I’m asked I usually respond by saying Colt. Not that I think that BCM and DD are a lesser gun but because Colts are the easiest to find.

[VictorMikeLima]

Thanks for the info Wonder Beard! I as able to talk to my boss today who is knowledgeable about firearms. He said that I should get a 1:8 twist instead of a 1:7? Apparently you can't shoot a certain amount of grain from a round? Such as a 40 grain I believe he said. Would anyone agree with that? Would that mean that if I purchased a 1:7 twist, that I would have to only fire the more expensive ammunition? (I'm a student, so I planned to spend $100 or so every two weeks to be consistent, and I believe it's about $16 for 20x .223's? So I could shoot around 100 rounds every week or two?)

My boss also said that Colt makes higher quality built rifles than Daniel Defense. I have a bit of a hard time believing this after watching Daniel Defenses torture test. Though Colt has been around longer, and I believe it's like the godfather of the AR-15. (Was is Colt to manufacture the first M16 rifle? Or Armalite? I forget...)

Anyways, guys...$1,500 for an AR. Which should I choose? Colt or Daniel Defense? (I would be going with the DD M4 Carbine V5, not sure which model of the colt I would get. The 6920 like Wonder Beard mentioned perhaps?)

I also thought of getting the KAC SR-15. My boss has one and says it runs around $1,900 to $2,200? That's a pretty penny there.

I'll have to do more research on each brands. But what do you guys think of the 1:8 twist barrel? He also said that it's more versatile than the 1:7, because it can shoot both high grain and low grain ammunition.

[Rodman24]

As for the twist, I've honestly never tried shooting a 40 gr in a 1:7 twist. Everything that I've heard/read is that 55 gr is about the smallest you'll want to use. Unless you have a need for shooting 40 gr (varmit hunting), the 1:7 will be the way to go.

As for ammo, you can get Federal 5.56 55 gr at Palmetto State Armory for $5.69/20 rounds ($284.50/1000). Match grade ammo will definitely cost you more and you'll want to run with heavier bullets (69 ro 75 gr for example) with the 1:7 twist (prices vary). If you want a 1:8 or 1:9 twist you're going to start limiting your choices. Keep in mind that punching paper for accuracy is one thing. Training for SHTF or HD engagement is another.

As for the Colt, BCM, KAC, Daniel Defense... you can't go wrong. Any of the those will deliver. I don't think that paying a premium for one over the other would be in your best interest at this point. You need ammo and time on the range. Shooting proficiency and training are a must. Don't get hung up on brand.

While I'm a fan of Daniel Defense, don't let the torture test sway your opinion too much. Colt, BCM, KAC, and others would deliver the same results. It was definitely a good test for the Aimpoint T-1.

[Wondering Beard]

Would that mean that if I purchased a 1:7 twist, that I would have to only fire the more expensive ammunition?

Which should I choose? Colt or Daniel Defense? (I would be going with the DD M4 Carbine V5, not sure which model of the colt I would get. The 6920 like Wonder Beard mentioned perhaps?)

About twist rate: what Rodman said. 55 gr is the most common practice ammo and a 1/7 will shoot them just fine. Ammo for more specialized purposes (defense, hunting, benchrest etc..) generally come in heavier weights which the 1/7 will shot just fine. The 1/8 seems to be flavor of the year (along with a Wylde chamber) when it comes to precision shooting, not that it's bad but is it really needed for most applications? 1/7 covers just about anything you want to shoot

As to which one to choose? what features do you want?

For a basic carbine that you can modify over time as it pleases you, it's hard to beat the Colt 6920 (it's basically the M4 with a 16 inch barrel instead of 14.5). The DD V5 is already set up with a solid rail that you can accessorize any way you want due to its length but do you /should you want a rail? It's up to you. My HD carbine doesn't have one.

Reflexively, I would say Colt (or a BCM/DD equivalent) because it's simple to learn on. My first serious AR was chosen because it had what I thought were all the right features from my internet reading. It's an excellent rifle that I don't regret but I wish I had started with something simpler that I could build on as my learning advanced. However, I am not you and what I really needed may not apply to you at all.

[VictorMikeLima]

Thanks, again, guys! You're really helping me out here, and I greatly appreciate it!

So, it seems the 1:7 would be the more versatile barrel. So, I should never shoot anything less than .223 or 5.56 nato out of my rifle. Unless, the purpose would be not to severely damage something, or demolish it in a sense. So the less grain used in a round, the more "gentle" the round fires or impacts? (That's sort of common sense if I think about it). What about higher grained rounds? What's an amount that I wouldn't want to surpass or fire through my rifle that could be unsafe or a larger liability? (For example, in a home defense environment, where the round could rip through an attacker and possibly go through the home and hurt somebody else, or even damage a neighbors home?)

As for other ammunition questions, where could I go to learn about them? Is there a thread possibly? I thought Federal was a good brand of ammunition? The one you would want to stock up and rely on. Or is it the better quality training ammunition?

Is there a way to verify a list of purposes of use for different grains of ammunition? Such as the 55 grain being your practice ammunition, what would the 69 and the 75 be used for? I would assume the higher grain rounds would be used for longer distant shooting and the lower grains to be closer, perhaps? But by how many meters or yards exactly? I probably won't be shooting past 300 meters/yards, not with an AR at least.

About my decisions on choosing an AR. The Colt 6920 seems to be a trusted and reliable rifle. Though it is carbine length, and I was looking for a mid-length. Would I be able to keep the barrel on the rifle and switch the front sight post with a low profile gas block in the future? It would be nice to own a Carbine Length, but eventually I believe I would make it a mid-length. Also, another question for the Colt 6920...Could that rifle stand up to what I saw with the Daniel Defense M4 V1? That torture test just blew my mind and makes the rifle seem top of the line, but I'm not sure how durable other rifles are so I really wouldn't be able to compare. But in the event that something may happen, I would like my rifle to hold up and possibly last a decade or two. If not longer! My decisions are honestly probably 75% based on others' opinions, because I am a beginner, and I can only study what They say. The other 25% would probably be that I favor companies. If that 6920 can be modified to a mid-length and can withstand the Daniel Defense, if not out perform it. I will most definitely purchase that rifle, it doesn't have to be fact, but a solid opinion would be appreciated. Like all inputs I have received. I've really learned a lot in the past week and for the most part, I have everyone in this thread to thank for it!

[Rodman24]

You should never try to shoot ammo in guns that aren’t designed for that chamber. I’m not sure you understand the bullet weight/caliber issue. The bullet (projectile) used in .223/5.56 has the same diameter. The difference between .223 and 5.56 NATO is related to the case and load, (same with .308 and 7.62 NATO), not the diameter of the bullet. The weight, shape and make-up of the bullet can vary. Go to this page and look at the various shapes and contours. The bullet diameter is always .224 regardless of the bullet weight/configuration. There are standard flat based rounds, hollow point boat tail, etc. These provide different ballistics and accuracy characteristics. A smaller bullet weight doesn’t necessarily mean less energy transferred to the target. Lighter bullets can also be loaded with more powder to produce higher velocities.

As for penetration in HD environment, you should look around for good HD rounds (Hornady TAP is one an example). Smaller higher velocity bullets tend to break apart and with lower mass tend to not over penetrate. But you should always be aware of what is beyond your target. That’s a basic rule. Heavier weighted bullets will be more accurate in a 1:7 twist because it be more stable than lighter bullets. If a lighter bullet like a 40 gr is fired from a 1:7 twist barrel, it will over-spin and tumble. Heavier grain bullets will be more stable and have more mass. They’re going to deliver a larger punch on the target (generally speaking).

Federal and PMC are inexpensive rounds that are good for training, and for fighting. They just not high grade match quality ammunition.

If you want to go to low profile gas block you can then add a longer handguard, but the gas system doesn’t change. Yes you can take a Colt, add a LPGB and add a longer rail, but you won’t be changing the carbine length gas system into a mid-length gas system.

For more on the torture test read this thread for some observations.

I think that since you’re so new to firearms, you have a lot to learn about shooting (ammo etc). It’s an exciting time for you. Start slow and learn all you can before you spend a lot of hard earned money on things that may not work out for you. Some of that is inevitable. There’s a lot to learn on the internet - some good and some bad. You should also find some folks who shoot a lot and ask them lots of questions. Go to gun stores and talk to them as well. Be sure to take what they tell you and categorize it into 2 big buckets: Reasoned/Objective Information and Opinion. Then run that information by some other folks for their views (same buckets apply). Start the filtering process, and once you have enough good information, put some of it to use and find out what you can validate and what works for your purposes.

[VictorMikeLima]

Oh! So the "grain" of a round would be the grain of the projectile itself? I thought it was the amount of gun powder inside the cartridge...! That's something new!

I also thought that a 5.56 barrel could fire both 5.56 nato and .223 ammunition?

Also, as for which rifle I've decided on. I'll go with the Colt 6920, though, it seems Colt has discontinued their LE model and is manufacturing a SP model. What are your thoughts between the two? Should I hunt for a LE model or just pick up an SP?

And from what I've read so far on this product, I've heard people shoot Wolf ammunition to text the reliability of a rifle? (Apparently Wolf ammo is of very poor quality.) I'll stick to the recommended brands. Which would be the "PMC X-TAC 55gr" and the "Federal XM193J 5.56mm 55gr FMJ", correct? (From what I'm looking at through the link you've sent me, Rodman24). What about the "Federal XM193BL"? Apparently this is a training round from what the site says, but it doesn't give information on the round itself.

I'd like to purchase a few hundred rounds or a solid thousand after my rifle purchase to get some range time and to get familiar with the rifle, but I would feel more comfortable purchasing ammunition in bulk if I could learn what the letters in these rounds meant. For example, Federals "XM193J", that "J" must mean something that I don't know. How would I go about learning how to identify ammunition?

Thanks guys for being of so much help! :)

[Rodman24]

You can shoot .223 in a 5.56 chambered weapon, but not 5.56 in a .223 chambered weapon. Much like you can shoot a .38 in a .357 revolver, but not vice versa.

The Colt should treat you just fine. No real opinion on the Civilian or LE model.

I can't really speak to the Wolf ammo. I don't plan to use it.

The Federal XM193 alphabet soup is a code for the manner in which it's packaged. J is the 20 round box, BL is the 100 round box, BM is the 1,000 round bulk case, etc. 193 is the code for the 55 gr, 855 is the 62 gr green tip.

[Wondering Beard]

Ammo confusion is perfectly normal. It took me a good long time too and frankly still confuses me every so often in the 5.56 realm.

A grain is a unit of weight measurement. It can refer to bullet weight or powder weight (or something else that small); the latter is not done anymore. Back in the days of black powder (and the early days of smokeless powder I think too), a load could be called by its caliber and powder charge, i.e 45-70, a 45 caliber round loaded with 70 grains of black powder.

Nowadays with the all the different powders and powder loadings, it's not practical to designate a caliber by the old system so grains are primarily used to talk about bullets (unless you're into reloading where the weight in grains of whichever powder you're using matters a great deal).

Unless you plan to put your rifle to use in HD or hunting soon after acquisition, don't worry yet about "which bullet is best for .." and get in some practice time with good 55gr practice ammo, i.e. some M193 variant from a quality manufacturer like Federal. As to what "the best bullet for .." actually is, you will find as many different answers as there are people. There is very little in the way of a reliable list to tell you what to choose. At this point in time, you might be better served by putting that category as a separate research from rifle research and read a great deal with an even greater deal of skepticism. It's a complicated subject with fanatical adherents to various theories and designs. I have my ideas and theories about ammo but they're only mine and not some "grand/all encompassing/covers and explains everything" theory.

Wolf ammo is cheap (in most meanings of the word) and that's why some people use it.

As to your rifle, if you really want a simple midlength to start with, the BCM MID-16 will do you just fine. You can modify the 6920 to become a midlength but you would have to take off the barrel and replace it with a new one and do a couple of other things; frankly, it's just easier to buy a midlength to start with or as a second rifle. I don't know that there's enough of a difference between midlength and carbine length gas system to make one truly better than the other but I'm not experienced enough to tell. Btw, the DD in the torture test is a carbine gas system, not midlength.

You'll be fine with any of the rifles recommended to you here. The only reason I can think of for choosing one over any of the others is the availibilty and price that you can find., though others may disagree.

As too the LE vs SP Colt, as far as I know they are the same rifle with different designations.

[VictorMikeLima]

Hey, guys!

Just got back from the Gun Show, unfortunately no one had the Colt 6920 in stock. One vender had the rifle, but was selling it for $1,400. Which is much more than the prices found online. I also tried looking for discount ammunition at the show, but it seems like the best option is to purchase in bulk online. Where do you guys normally purchase your ammunition?

[Hmac]

Hey, guys!

Just got back from the Gun Show, unfortunately no one had the Colt 6920 in stock. One vender had the rifle, but was selling it for $1,400. Which is much more than the prices found online. I also tried looking for discount ammunition at the show, but it seems like the best option is to purchase in bulk online. Where do you guys normally purchase your ammunition?

If you go to enough guns shows, you are likely someday to stumble across a good deal. Otherwise, in my experience around here, it's going to be mostly dealers selling store inventory that won't move, cheap and/or marginal quality items they got a good deal on in bulk, or the occasional item that is otherwise very difficult to find (you'll pay a lot).

Ammunition is a reasonable thing to buy online, but pay attention to the shipping charges. I generally shoot PMC Bronze, and my break point is $0.30 per round. I've been buying from Palmetto State armory. They are reliable, have good prices, and charge $12 shipping for 1000 rounds. There are other places that price their ammo similarly. Cabelas sell ammo reasonably, but if they have a store in your state they'll have to charge you sales tax for your online purchase.

[VictorMikeLima]

Thanks for the input Hmac! I appreciate it :)

No real news on my purchasing the Colt or any firearm. May just wait till the next Gun Show.