Pre-SHOT SHOW 09 rumors, guesses, hopes, etc..

[OUTLAW-ONE]

OO,

The ACR will be released, but its primary focus currently is the meeting military requirements for upcoming military trials.

I don't work for Magpul, Bushmaster, or Cerberus, but the above is my understanding of what is happening with the program.


The ACR will yield its final fruit to the civilian market, I don't have much doubt about that, but its time frame is what is in the air. I do question whether everyone at Bushmaster put their full force behind the project when it first arrived. Had that happened, I feel we would be looking at two variants, one ACR which would have been released, and one which would have been altered for MIL projects.

I would not have been opposed to seeing a earlier release of the ACR, but part of that would be for selfish reasons. I would have liked to have owned one back in late 2006 when I first had a chance to play around with it. HOWEVER, it is entirely possible that a revised ACR, developed for a MIL contract or around MIL constraints, may lead to an overall superior weapon down the road. If 20 years from now we are sitting around in cyberspace talking about how the Military ACR/ M-Whatever had a hard time getting off the group, people will probably laugh at us and call us liars.


Again, for clarity, these are my thoughts, and not those of the guys developing, creating, or working on the Masada/ ACR project, nor do I know in whos hands the final project will end up in the end.

I understand your comment, I value your opinion and was just curious what your thoughts on the ACR were. Also, I'm looking forward to your pics and reports from SHOT, will you be posting a SHOT thread here that you will be updating STICK?

[Army Chief]

It does not look like the MR223. The MR223 is built around German laws. I will be able to post a pic of the US rifle in a few days I think.

Obviously, there is much at stake here, but I believe it is worth making the observation that IF we get something other than the MR223 which is already available in other markets, we will be the only ones to see such a rifle. In every other country in which the MR223 has been released, it is the same product, which is to say, a fundamentally different thing than the 416 we've been expecting.

I've no idea what Wilcox is building, of course, and only time will tell; that said, the naming convention alone gives me pause, as HK doesn't appear to be making any attempt to distinguish the domestic US model from the one that the rest of the planet is getting. Pricing remains a relevant concern, but if we're given the current MR223 formula with its non-standard upper/lower configuration, a lot of the enthusiasm for this product will tank in a hurry. One would think that HK would already be on top of this, but their history would seem to support wild conjecture at this point. I've no immediate need for this carbine, but my hope is that they get it right.

AC

[Army Chief]

The ACR will yield its final fruit to the civilian market, I don't have much doubt about that, but its time frame is what is in the air. I do question whether everyone at Bushmaster put their full force behind the project when it first arrived. Had that happened, I feel we would be looking at two variants, one ACR which would have been released, and one which would have been altered for MIL projects.

Hear, hear.

Given the manner in which we've managed our military weapons procurement programs over the past 100 years, I'm not sure that they haven't already needlessly missed an opportunity. I'm as hopeful as the next guy, but to stake everything on military trials which could well result in "validation of concept," but no contract or production decision -- well, that just strikes me as a bit short-sighted. We've done these trials before, and lest we forget, it wasn't so long ago that HK was virtually assured a contract for the triumphant (and now forgotten) XM8.

Now, I'll be the first to concede that a positive outcome in the trials will make my argument look rather foolish, but like the others who have already weighed in here, I was paying close attention when Magpul indicated that they were mindful of the timelines, and eager to get this into the hands of the shooting public. It would appear that they've been trumped in this, and production realities being what they are, I don't fault them for the current situation; even so, an opportunity is being wasted.

AC

[GIFFMANN]

Obviously, there is much at stake here, but I believe it is worth making the observation that IF we get something other than the MR223 which is already available in other markets, we will be the only ones to see such a rifle. In every other country in which the MR223 has been released, it is the same product, which is to say, a fundamentally different thing than the 416 we've been expecting.

I've no idea what Wilcox is building, of course, and only time will tell; that said, the naming convention alone gives me pause, as HK doesn't appear to be making any attempt to distinguish the domestic US model from the one that the rest of the planet is getting. Pricing remains a relevant concern, but if we're given the current MR223 formula with its non-standard upper/lower configuration, a lot of the enthusiasm for this product will tank in a hurry. One would think that HK would already be on top of this, but their history would seem to support wild conjecture at this point. I've no immediate need for this carbine, but my hope is that they get it right.

AC

HK released info on their website regarding the MR556. Looks like they are using the pin spacing as the MR223.....If that's the case, then that is a big disaapointment.

[HaveBlue]

the naming convention alone gives me pause, as HK doesn't appear to be making any attempt to distinguish the domestic US model from the one that the rest of the planet is getting.

AC

Heckler & Koch Inc. Newington, NH USA
The serial numbers start with US-XXX-XXXXXX

They went up on HK's website today.

http://hk-usa.com/rifles_mr556_general.html

http://hk-usa.com/rifles_mr762_general.html

[HaveBlue]

The official press release;


HK to make new rifles in U.S. facility

Columbus, Georgia, January 15, 2009 - Firearms maker Heckler & Koch announced today that it will manufacture two new rifle designs in a newly opened US factory in 2009. The new rifles, the MR556 and MR762, are inspired and influenced by the HK416 and HK417, two highly acclaimed models designed and produced by Heckler & Koch’s Oberndorf, Germany plant.

The rifles will be produced at a new HK manufacturing facility in Newington, New Hampshire. The facility is co-located within an existing 70,000 square foot facility. HK began manufacturing pistols in the U.S. facility in late 2008.

"We’ve reached a major milestone in our objective to establish a production presence in the US," said Wayne Weber, executive vice president of the US business unit of Heckler & Koch. “The new HK45 pistol is the first HK product officially ‘Made in the USA’. It is our goal to strategically transfer production of select HK products to the U.S., with the HK45 Compact being the next product to come off the U.S. production line and shortly thereafter, the MR series rifles.

“It is our intention for all US-made HK products to equal the quality and reliability of the products made in Germany,” Weber added. “By establishing American-based manufacturing, we can compliment our German production and ensure that HK can be more competitive in the U.S., and comply with U.S. government contracts requiring US manufacturing. HK products made in the USA will be fully compliant with federal solicitations giving preference to domestically produced products. Additionally, it will provide a boost to the U.S. economy by creating more opportunities and business for many of our U.S. subcontractors and suppliers.”

The MR556 and MR762 models, caliber 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm rifles respectively, will be produced at the Newington facility from American and German made components. To comply with German government regulations, certain design changes were made in the rifles to make them adaptable to the American commercial sporting market.

The semi-automatic MR series rifles use an HK-proprietary gas piston operating system recognized for ultra reliability and will have German-made cold hammer forged barrels. These are some of the same key features critical to the success of the HK416 carbines used by leading US and foreign law enforcement and military customers. The HK416 is widely viewed as a leading candidate in a possible competition to replace the U.S. military’s current M4 carbine.

[Stickman]

I'm sorry for reposting but I really want to know about this one, if anyone has anything.

I would expect info to be released at SHOT 09, but I can check with KL Davis or give him a call. He is a good guy.

[Stickman]

The official press release;

The MR556 and MR762 models, caliber 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm rifles respectively, will be produced at the Newington facility from American and German made components. To comply with German government regulations, certain design changes were made in the rifles to make them adaptable to the American commercial sporting market.

This is a gigantic failure in my eyes, and I don't see me ever owning one. The ability of the AR15 to be modular is one of its greatest assets, and purchasing an AR15 which will not yield modular capability make no sense for my own needs.

I wish them the best of luck, but intentionally making it fail to work with existing platforms has started it off on rocky ground, and has hamstrung it from the start.

[Stickman]

OUTLAW-ONE,


We will have a few SHOT related threads going. The idea is to have one gigantic thread with all pictures from SHOT, and AR15 specific threads as well. Last year we limited images that we put up, this year we want to put up MUCH more.

The Staff idea for 2009 is to increase the amount of threads on the board, and get more involvement in a few areas.

[HaveBlue]

This is a gigantic failure in my eyes, and I don't see me ever owning one. The ability of the AR15 to be modular is one of its greatest assets, and purchasing an AR15 which will not yield modular capability make no sense for my own needs.

I wish them the best of luck, but intentionally making it fail to work with existing platforms has started it off on rocky ground, and has hamstrung it from the start.

To comply with German government regulations, certain design changes were made in the rifles to make them adaptable to the American commercial sporting market.

I can understand how people will feel this way. But, having to comply with German law is just fact. It's the only way this rifle gets made. This gun will have a 3500.00 MSRP. People will buy it because they want an HK rifle. If someone wants a Cold Hammer Forged Barrel Piston Upper they should get a LWRCi. I have one and I love it. The bulk of the cost of a piston gun is the upper. The US market demand right now (90% of it) is for complete 16 inch rifle. How many times have we read lately that company ABC is not selling lowers because they have so many orders for complete guns.
just my 2 cents
It's not like this is an SL8. Most all other AR parts will fit it.

[Army Chief]

I honestly believe we're being given a half-truth there. If this rifle is to be made in America (or largely made in America), then the German production and export requirements are largely moot.

HK can justify the bait and switch however they like, but I am persuaded that, had they wanted to give us a semiautomatic 416, they could have done just that. This strikes me as more of a production efficiency measure with the convenient side benefit (from their perspective) that HK components will now only fit on HK lower receivers.

Oberland Arms AR pattern rifles aren't compatible with ours either, but that is because they are being made for the German domestic market. To further suggest that German-made components destined for the US market cannot conform to standard specifications because of German law is misleading at best: OA has done this for many years with impunity.

AC

[HaveBlue]

Army Chief, can't say I disagree. economy of scale without a doubt figure into this.

[12131]

So, according to HK, the upper can't be used on the standard AR lower. Does it even take standard AR mags?

[OUTLAW-ONE]

So, according to HK, the upper can't be used on the standard AR lower. Does it even take standard AR mags?

yes it does, if you look at the pic of the MR556 with kit you will see standard AR mags in the group.

[Army Chief]

PMAGs were an issue with the 416 before; I'm curious if things will have improved any in tihs version.

AC